Ahead of the general election on Nov. 3, Vermont Public is interviewing candidates for statewide and federal office, as well as hosting debates.
Senior host Mitch Wertlieb interviewed both candidates in Vermont's race for auditor of accounts, Democrat Tim Ashe and Republican Ivar Kronick. You can learn more about the candidates in Vermont Public's candidate guide.
The candidate interviews that aired on Vermont Edition today were edited for length and clarity. In the interest of transparency, we are sharing the transcript of the original, unedited interviews below.
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Tim Ashe
Tim Ashe has served as deputy state auditor since 2021, and served in the Vermont state senate from 2009 to 2021. He also has experience as a housing developer.
Mitch Wertlieb: The state auditor is an independent government watchdog position, and the auditor's duties include evaluating government spending and conducting performance audits of specific programs. The Democratic nominee vying for the office in the November general election is Tim Ashe, a Burlington resident who's served in local and state government in various capacities since 2004. Tim Ashe joins me now in the studio. Tim, thanks for being with us.
Tim Ashe: Thanks for having me, Mitch.
Mitch Wertlieb: First question: Why do you want to be state auditor of Vermont?
Tim Ashe: Well, Mitch, I think anybody who's been watching state government’s performance over the last five years should have real concerns. Property tax is up about 40%. The state budget has increased a whopping 50% in five years. Health insurance premiums went from being tolerably close to the national average to double the national average, and I think Vermont state government can do better. Vermonters deserve better. And the state auditor is uniquely positioned to evaluate how state government's doing and identify ways to make things better.
Mitch Wertlieb: You have been the deputy state auditor since 2021. Are there any big changes to the way the office operates, or the things that it focuses on that you've been hoping to implement if you become state auditor?
Tim Ashe: I think for me, it's drawing on both what I perceive as the two biggest issues facing the state, which also happen to lend themselves to some of my professional background. And that is healthcare prices and housing costs. I'm the chair of the Community Health Center Board, Vermont's largest non-hospital primary care organization. And, I developed affordable housing at Cathedral Square for a decade.
So both of those issues, which are crushing people in Vermont, are going to receive the lion's share of the resources if I'm lucky enough to serve as state auditor.
Mitch Wertlieb: Now, we should be clear that the state auditor does not set policy. You're not there crafting new ways of dealing with housing, etc.
When you spoke with Mikaela Lefrak about this on Vermont Edition, when you were running in the primary, you talked about the Agency of Human Services, which makes up about what, half the state budget? You said that was kind of a focal point for the auditor to look at in terms of whether the money is being spent effectively, and that's kind of the role, as I take it, that the auditor does. You pointed out that healthcare dollars are being spent, quote, 'increasingly on pharmaceuticals and mental health services,' and you want to make sure Vermonters are getting the right value for that money being spent.
How would you determine that, as state auditor, whether that money is being spent wisely?
Tim Ashe: Well, in a number of strategies, because healthcare spending pops up in many different ways. Everything from paying for when you go to the doctor through Medicaid to all of the mental health programs we have scattered throughout the state, and myriad programs in state government. So, I think the first and most important piece is to continue to keep the pressure on state officials who regulate our healthcare industry to try to drive down prices to levels that are comparable to what other states pay for the exact same services, and that is something that I am really focused on.
When it comes to areas like mental health, sometimes it feels rather amorphous because we're not dealing with just fixing someone's broken leg. These are expenses which may incur for the life of someone, and it's not a linear path to go from needing help. You don't just get cured at the snap of a finger. However, how we organize those services can be compared to how other states and agencies are doing so to make sure we're doing it in the most efficient manner possible, and evaluating the outcomes we're getting for these kinds of interventions to make sure that we don't just feel good about the way we're spending the money, but the money is actually producing a result.
Mitch Wertlieb: I'm wondering if one of those strategies you're talking about in how to deal with healthcare spending is something called reference-based spending, which is something that you championed. Talk a little bit about that, because the state has adopted this reference-based pricing for healthcare. What is that exactly?
Tim Ashe: Yeah, it's probably the thing I'm most proud of in terms of being deputy state auditor, is having a role presenting to legislators and the governor the choice to discontinue the mere act of paying whatever price healthcare providers were charging, but rather try to drive that price down to what was a more fair price, one that is closer, more closely connected to how much it actually costs the provider to provide the service.
So, reference-based pricing, in short, says if it costs the provider $10 to do service X, well, we're going to pay something close to $10, but maybe a little bit of extra for overhead costs and enough to reinvest. We're not going to pay $50 or $60 just because that's what it says on the bill. That's what we've been doing in the past.
So, we will be monitoring the implementation of that in the coming years. And as auditor, I'll be particularly interested because I helped put that idea on the table. And it wasn't just me, of course, but others in the office as well. But that represents probably the most immediate and significant opportunity to reduce the amount of money the state spends on its own employees, which is a considerable cost to taxpayers.
Mitch Wertlieb: I know we're getting into the weeds on health care here.
Tim Ashe: Yes. It's always a dangerous topic for that purpose.
Mitch Wertlieb: There's no question about it, and yet, I have to bring this up because I wonder about things like concerns over Medicaid reimbursement. Vermont hospitals are already reporting millions of dollars in losses because Medicaid reimbursement doesn't cover the full cost of treating patient care currently. That, to me, and I could be wrong here, but that does not sound like a problem that reference-based pricing can fix.
Tim Ashe: Reference-based pricing attacks wasteful spending in healthcare, not healthcare being delivered at an efficient level and providers who are not getting paid enough. So the idea is not that you just lower how much you pay everybody. It's that you identify the outliers, those providers who cost way more than can be reasonably justified, and drive those prices down. I'd be the first to say, trust me. I mean, I am the chair of the board of a primary healthcare organization, which I do believe gets underpaid for the core services it delivers.
So, as we reform the state's healthcare system. It's not that every single service needs to see the price go down. Some of them should be paid more. What we're seeing with delivery services around the state is a reflection of completely insane reimbursement strategies that have developed over decades, where core community functions are getting paid too little. Meanwhile, we have some services that are cash cows and being used as profit centers. So, we've got to rebalance these things so that every community has what it really needs, and that we're not forcing some of these horrible decisions that we've been seeing, and that VPR has been very good about reporting.
Mitch Wertlieb: When it comes to things like Medicaid, though, we are hearing about things that are going to be happening at the federal level, cuts coming to Medicaid that I don't think the state can necessarily control. But if those changes come to Vermont, how would your office deal with that? If that's something that would fall under your purview.
Tim Ashe: Yeah, I think the role for the auditor's office would be to identify the biggest risk areas. You know, we don't set policy, and what the federal government sends is what it sends, ultimately. So then it's about managing the funds that we do receive to the highest and best use.
There will obviously be serious implications for individuals, families, small businesses, and others, and providers from the cuts that are coming down. I think the best that the auditor's office can do is help policymakers understand the implications of what those cuts are going to be, so that we're prepared for them and we're not just reacting in a hasty way at the last second.
Mitch Wertlieb: Tim Ashe, on the one hand, your experience in state government will look like a positive to Vermont voters who want to elect someone with experience dealing with some of these big issues, these complex issues we're talking about here, things like high property taxes, spiraling healthcare costs, school consolidation, much more.
The other side of that coin is that these problems have only gotten worse over the last decade or so in Vermont, including during the time you were most active as a state senator. What would you tell a Vermont voter who is skeptical that your leadership as state auditor would help alleviate some of these problems?
Tim Ashe: Well, I would say that the last five years have been particularly problematic. Vermont is always, as a small state, one that struggles with how to accomplish a lot with a small population and a fairly limited set of revenue streams. But, what we've seen in the last five years, whether it's education spending, healthcare spending, state spending, these have all, the curve on these has accelerated upwards significantly in the last five years. I have not been in a policymaker role in those five years.
So what I think people will find with me as their state auditor, is you have someone who has always been determined, not just to have the kind of compassionate set of values that most Vermonters share, but that I treat every dollar as if it's my own. So I'm not looking at taxpayer money as some slush fund that you work with. No, you treat it with the same care and scrutiny as if it was your own. I have a long-standing reputation. Sometimes that caused some friction with legislators who wanted to spend, spend, spend.
And so I bring, I'm very proud of my record in terms of fiscal discipline, scrutiny of state government performance, a willingness to call out programs if they're just not delivering good enough results, and you know my focus is entirely on impact and results. So Vermonters in two years will be able to judge how I've done.
Mitch Wertlieb: Despite what happens nationally to control of the House and Senate after the November midterms, the nation's highest executive office will still be headed by Donald Trump.
And you've said you want to protect Vermonters to the extent you can, from policies that he's backed that you feel are harmful to the people of this state. I'm wondering what some of those policies are that you're concerned about, and as state auditor, what, if anything, could you do to help prevent them from negatively affecting people here?
Tim Ashe: Yeah, I think I'll take, you know, natural disaster preparedness as a good example where the Trump administration has been really cutting back on funding commitments in that regard.
Vermont already is a little bit behind the eight ball because we are not very good at prevention. We're very good at responding when something terrible happens, but investing up front to reduce the damage that's inflicted with natural disasters and other hazards, we have a lot of work to do. So, scrutinizing the state budget for items like that, so that legislators understand that now is the time to make those proactive decisions while those federal funds are still flowing, rather than find ourselves having postponed or delayed that kind of action, then the funding gets cut, so we can't address it later.
So, it's a bit of an art more than a science when it comes to predicting President Trump's intended actions. But, I think we know what some of the highest risk areas are in all of those FEMA-type activities I would just flag as one primary example of where the auditor's office has already put some resources into and can continue to do so.
Mitch Wertlieb: Tim Ashe is running as a Democrat to be Vermont's next state auditor. I want to thank you so much for the time.
Tim Ashe: Thank you, Mitch.
Ivar Kronick
Ivar Kronick works for an international manufacturing firm in Manchester and is a former Pittsfield, Massachusetts city councilor.
Mitch Wertlieb: Ivar Kronick is the Republican candidate for state auditor in the upcoming general midterm election. And if you don't recognize his name from the primary this summer, it's because he wasn't on the ballot then.
H. Brooke Paige entered his name as the Republican candidate in four statewide races as a way to keep potential Democratic write-in candidates from winning the nomination. He then withdrew from three of the four races, including state auditor, leaving the state Republican Party to name a replacement for voters to consider in November. And that's where Ivar Kronick comes in. He's from Poultney, and he joins me now. So, Ivar Kronick, why do you want to be the state auditor of Vermont?
Ivar Kronick: I have 30 years' experience in business, okay? And I work in a manufacturing firm. It’s publicly traded. It is a highly audited environment and I am the point person in the independent financial audits.
What's going on in the state of Vermont is that we have a huge spending issue. It's about a $9 billion budget, and it grows about by half a billion dollars every year in growth spending. And I am concerned that the current state of the auditor's office has misdirected its attention into low-dollar-value pursuits such as investigative reports and performance audits, and we are not seeing where the money is going in the state spending. It has to, and my objective as state auditor is to redirect this office so that it goes, focuses, strongly on financial review and identifying the risk in our state spending,
Mitch Wertlieb: When you visit your website, you list three core priorities there: radical transparency in state spending, rooting out waste and fraud, and protecting taxpayer dollars across every agency and department. So, let's start with that first item. What do you mean by radical transparency in state spending, and how would you deliver on that?
Ivar Kronick: Well, radical transparency is what is absolutely needed. I want to sort of start, I'm going to mention this probably several times, but the core responsibility, the primary responsibility of elected office, is to provide 100% accountability to the taxpayer for the spending of their money. And if he had to choose just one, that would have to be it, of all the responsibilities. So, if you go onto the state auditor’s website, it is very opaque. It doesn't have a comprehensive report on how money is being spent and all the audits that are being done. All the information is available on the site, and you have to work very very hard to get it.
I want to restructure that site so that all the audits that are in process are listed. I want the schedule up there, so everyone can see what's being audited and what's planned to be audited. And I want to have into one place, an aggregated grand schedule, I call it, of all the audit findings. The recommendations, and all the violations, in one easy-to-search place, so the information is, the site will become extremely useful and helpful for the public. There's an additional element to this I want to add: is risk, that there is a risk reporting done by the state auditor, but is not publicly reported. I would like to have that available as well, so the public can see where risk has been established in the state government.
Mitch Wertlieb: What kind of risk do you mean? What are you talking about exactly when you say risk?
Ivar Kronick: Risk is something that is a element of the office that I will want to establish a specific person, dedicated person to establishing. But the point is of the state auditor's office is that it needs — the independent audits that happen throughout the state's financial year look for general compliance and general best practices being followed. The state auditor actually lets most outside auditors do most of that work, but what the state auditor, therefore, is freer to do is to look for fraud, waste and abuse in spending.
Now, understand we have $9 billion budget, and about $1.5 billion, $9 billion over the last couple of years, flows through the state government to private or through grants, primarily, and we know for a fact that fraud, risk and abuse, as issues, are human issues. That is, it involves people, and everybody who is living in a family understands that waste and abuse of family money happens all the time, and they work hard to deal with it, and they can see it. You can't see it in the state government, because it is sort of concealed behind all the activities in the, you know, the black boxes of government, and so risk is where people can either steal or engage in activities that are non-productive. That would be waste, and otherwise abuse, which is doing things, spending on projects that should not be done, is not in their area to do, but they do them anyway.
But, you have to find out where that risk is. That's the first thing, and there is no real good way to — I would probably look at big areas of spending, the top three, but understanding also that risk and that lie in technology, in bookkeeping systems and softwares, the tax data, tax software for properties. And all of those things have to be looked at, and it can be highly diffuse across the state, or it can be concentrated into specific areas of departments.
Mitch Wertlieb: The state auditor is charged in part with evaluating government spending and doing performance audits. You alluded to this a little bit on certain programs when you talk about rooting out waste and fraud. Are you considering any specific programs or departments that you might target for a performance audit if you're elected?
Ivar Kronick: Yeah, you know, performance audits is a big thing for me because the state, the government, the auditor's office currently is highly focused on performance audit. I would say it is a focus bias, in fact. Not a, 'you shouldn't do them,' but it’s highly biased towards them. And I would have those refocused onto the financial audits. So, I would pull it back off that, turn the dial back on that.
And the top highest spendings. In fact, it's unfortunate, Mitch. It's really unfortunate that the biggest spending, highest risk, is in the University of Vermont. But by law, the state auditor can't audit the university system. So it's like it's been sort of, audit proof in a way. So, therefore you have to go down the list to the smaller areas, and that would be Vermont State Housing Authority, and the Green Mountain Transit, and the school districts, educational districts.
And also, I have to say, Medicaid. Big – always has to be. They always have to look at that. It has a lot of independent reviewers in federal review. The state needs to look at it too, because the state auditor, unlike the federal auditors and the other auditors, know the connections between the organizations and they know better where to look.
Mitch Wertlieb: Medicaid changes are coming, really from the federal government, and are you concerned about how that is going to affect healthcare here in the state of Vermont?
Ivar Kronick: Well, I think that there is a bigger issue, which is in the fact that Medicare, Medicaid, rather, is highly prone to abuse as it is. And the federal — I don't have the details on the part of the changes, right? I don't know what changes are coming down. But I had worked in healthcare in the past. It was in my past work experience and study. The funding is incredibly complex. I mean, you cannot really understand how that really works unless you've been deeply working in it, and the best way to deal with potential changes is to ensure full compliance with the spending and full transparency and reporting. So, that's from the federal level. That's looking back to the federal. Make sure that there is no theft and malpractice, and we have them, and we find them. It's out there. It's a big exposure. And so, as far as my concern is simply that we just have to keep doing what we do, are supposed to be doing, as the auditor in examining for best practices in the accounting world.
Mitch Wertlieb: The role of state auditor does not entail any kind of policy making. You know, you're not here to create laws or make suggestions in that way. I'm trying to get the idea of what your philosophy is of the state auditor. I mean, how would you approach this role? Would it be as mostly a watchdog or somebody that is making policy recommendations, even though again, you know, those would not carry any weight as far as implementing policy.
Ivar Kronick: Well, I think that would be, have to say with the watchdog element because this is why I say this, and I've been talking about this on the campaign a lot, which is that the current office has morphed over the last decade or so. Not just the last administration of Hopper, but the prior ones as well. It's been a transformation, and it's transforming itself, unfortunately, to a policy workshop where they're producing about like 11 audits every year, I think. And but otherwise, there's a long list of investigative reports, which are essentially policy recommendations on official letterhead, is how I would look at those. And that has cost, produced an opportunity cost in time and resources where you could be focusing on looking for the human behaviors that you should be looking for that's going on in the state in the spending of our money.
Mitch Wertlieb: Interesting. If I'm hearing you right, you're saying that there may be too much of an emphasis in recent years on some of these investigative audits.
Ivar Kronick: Yes, I would say definitely the case. I have no doubt about that. It's what we call a focus bias. So, that there's a lot of attention on TIFs, a lot of attention on the Vermont Economic Growth Initiative, which is VEGI. They're finding areas to save and that presents a good picture for what they're doing. But unfortunately, it’s a very, very small piece of the spending problem in the state.
Mitch Wertlieb: When you mention TIFs, that means, that's the tax incremental financing. Do I have that right?
Ivar Kronick: Yeah, tax incremental financing. Absolutely. Understand the auditor needs to look at them by law, and they do, and that's mandated. But the focus really should be on, generally, I say the capital spending projects, for example, that are statewide, that go beyond just TIFs. So, if you want to look at TIFs and you want to explore abuse, potential abuses there. Expand it. Go out to all the capital projects. What about the, you know, road development? Whatever it is that you see a potential risk of fraud or waste.
Mitch Wertlieb: You want to make sure that those projects are being handled responsibly, so that taxpayer money is not being wasted, basically?
Ivar Kronick: Yeah.
Mitch Wertlieb: Your Democratic opponent in November, Tim Ashe, says that one of his priorities is to protect Vermonters from what he sees as the harms of the Trump administration's policies. Is that a concern that you have as well?
Ivar Kronick: I say it's completely out of the element of the auditor's office. That is national versus state. And the only impact we see from the auditing point of view is federal money passing through the state government and we have to be mindful of how that is spent. The biggest problem really is, to be honest with you, is that we are spending $9 and a half billion a year in taxpayers' dollars and our budget is growing out of control, and we are auditing very small pieces of the picture.
Now, in terms of what does Vermont need, it is a rural state. It is mostly rural. If you look at, over the last, I think, five years, it's like $1.9 billion dispensed through grants throughout the state. Only 1% goes into agriculture, and of those agricultural grants, the vast majority are very small, like $30,000, and a large number of grant applications are absolutely rejected, or that's not approved. And so, as far as insulating Vermonters, as auditor, I would want to look at those rejected grants, for example, and understand: Is there a policy driving the rejection of grants that is contrary to how the granting authorities in the state should be operating?
Mitch Wertlieb: If you did find such a case, what would then be the auditor's role in that?
Ivar Kronick: The auditor's role would be to report the bad practice that is not valid and report it back to the agency and to, probably, to the state Congress.
Mitch Wertlieb: And then the legislators would decide whether or not there should be some action taken there.
Ivar Kronick: That would be the beginning thing. Now, if it was really, you know, let's just say, unlawful, for example, then you start talking about, you go back and revisit, you know, and you look at it. And if it continues, and if nothing's happening, you have to make complaints to the attorney generals and inspector generals or whatever, whatever oversight authorities that exist within the state.
Mitch Wertlieb: Ivar Kronick is from Poultney and is running as the Republican candidate for State Auditor of Vermont. I want to thank you so much for the time speaking with us today. Thank you.
Ivar Kronick: Thank you very much. It's been a great pleasure.
Mitch Wertlieb: Ivar. That was great. Really appreciate it. Again, you know, we have so much material here. I apologize in advance for you know I'm going to have to truncate this down. I really liked your explanations about, you know, looking at the difference between TIFs and looking at some of that stuff. Is there anything you want me to absolutely keep in that you feel is like, essential?
Ivar Kronick: I think what's the essential thing, Mitch, and I'm hoping I got this across, is that I have a philosophy that I'm bringing into this job, and this is where it comes out of:
In city council, I saw millions of dollars come in to serve our communities. And my ward was half of it was inner city, highly distressed. In the whole center of that city was a big center of economic stress, and millions of dollars come in through grants that we took in, and nothing changed on the ground in these communities. Lots of good ideas. And I voted for most of them. Understand? I actually voted for most of them because it's like you can't not vote for this. You can't vote for a gang fighting bill for a million dollars, but the process, the money comes in and it'll be handed off to a private outside company to handle it, and no one could audit it. No one could see where the money was spent, and nothing changed. And gang violence went from, you know, one shooting a year when I started, in the beginning of my time there, to now it's like every week.
Mitch Wertlieb: This was in Pittsfield.
Ivar Kronick: It's just nothing happened. Two young people from Williams College — very progressive. And I was, honestly I'm not a progressive, and that's no shame there. And they came to me. They're very concerned. Like, we tried to audit, track down where this money goes, and it stops dead at that place, the Shannon Center or whatever, and they were concerned, too, You understand. And we couldn't provide for it. And then we had an ARPA grant of $41 million, and they took the whole thing, and it went away into a black box.
Mitch Wertlieb: So your big concern is that when this money comes in, you want to then be able to follow how it's being used.
Ivar Kronick: Yeah, I want to say, show where it's being used and what's happening. My big point is that the auditor office today has told itself completely, and I think it just happens. What happens when one person manages a department for too long? They accumulate all these accounts and mental accounts, so to speak, and they grow a bias into their own office, because how can you not, right? I mean, imagine if you ran NPR, it would be Mitch NPR for 50 years.
Mitch Wertlieb: Nobody wants that.
Ivar Kronick: And you'd be on, because your ideas would sort of permeate, right?
Mitch Wertlieb: It's human nature thing, yeah.
Ivar Kronick: That's just how things work, how systems work, right? And so it's become a policy workshop, and we've got no sense. We need to get back to figuring out: how is the money actually being spent, and looking for the human behaviors throughout the whole government. And I want to add to it, you know, information, technology, auditing. Because again, that's a big vulnerability.
Now I'm glad you’re recording that, actually.
Broadcast on Monday, Oct. 19, 2026, at noon; rebroadcast at 7 p.m.
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